[Search & Destroy]

Farage absolutely blew them away


As expected though


Raynor hopeless as expected



https://www.telegrap...lection-debate/

This post has been edited by Search & Destroy: 08 June 2024 - 08:41 AM

[isleaiw1]

 The Earl of Chesterfield, on 08 June 2024 - 07:58 AM, said:

Flicked between England and this cringe-fest.

Equally demoralising.

As said Farage did his usual demagoguery. Division...hypocrisy...victimhood...and of course he's the only one 'brave enough to say it as it is'.

Or as the moral majority call it, 'peddle bigotry'.

But the scariest thing of all is we have a front line politician now advocating US style health insurance. The bigger your wallet, the better your chances. And if you can't afford the gold star standard? Well, best of British.

Daftest part is it's the very demographic needing the NHS most largely supporting him.

Then the Tory tactic is clearly just to shout out lies, then shout down challenge. Thought the usually excellent Mishal Hussein was weak in allowing it, too.

Angie Raynor was like a kid on best behaviour, though. I got the impression she really wanted to fire back but tried to adopt the adage about being dragged down to others levels. Meaning she ended up neither here nor there.

Daftest part is Farage is the best ally Labour have. Other than the utterly incompetent Sunak himself, of course. They'll win seat after seat after seat simply because he'll split the anti immigrant vote.

The irony is beyond hilarious...

I'll ignore all the rest of the political opinion (personally I thought Raynor was out of her depth and Mordaunt was too busy arguing with Labour to take on the party that is their real problem...)... but on the NHS. We all agree its not working as it is. Despite having ever more money thrown at it. With an ever ageing population and ever increasing costs of new treatments and medications, its only going to get more expensive and more complex and bigger. There are already 1.5 million people on a headcount basis working for the NHS. The number is growing every year. I think we all agree it is badly run - too many managers, wrong roles, not held to account....

So what is your solution? Most successful health systems have a split between state and private delivery. For me, if they gave tax breaks for private cover - rather than taxing you for having it so you pay twice! - then those that can afford it can go private leaving the govt the funds needed to provide a better service for fewer people....

By the way, Loved Starmer saying he'd only use the NHS - if multi millionaires like him went private then there would be more spaces for the people that dont get a choice on treatment.


For me, private medical cover is something that is bound to happen because of the way the world is changing. So have a plan to do it before the NHS and the country's finances collapse completely.

What's your solution?

[oldgoat]

Running the nhs properly would be a good start , remove political involvement , stop repeating the same stupid ideas again and again , but no privatisation . I've been a nurse since 1986 and have witnessed first hand the way it is run , too many useless managers at all levels , loads of bed managers and pen pushers who don't improve clinical outcomes , I was a mature entrant to nursing and get my old age pension just after xmas , will miss the patients but not much else

This post has been edited by oldgoat: 08 June 2024 - 09:41 AM

[isleaiw1]

 oldgoat, on 08 June 2024 - 09:39 AM, said:

Running the nhs properly would be a good start , remove political involvement , stop repeating the same stupid ideas again and again , but no privatisation . I've been a nurse since 1986 and have witnessed first hand the way it is run , too many useless managers at all levels , loads of bed managers and pen pushers who don't improve clinical outcomes , I was a mature entrant to nursing and get my old age pension just after xmas , will miss the patients but not much else

And its been said thus since I can remember - but who runs the massive business that its become if we dont have pen pushers and bed managers? Getting people out when they are fit would help and that needs the care system sorting - and I havent seen that in any manifesto yet.

I am fortunate enough to have never spent a night in hospital for me since I was born in Ashgate but sadly I did get to spend many days there when my late wife was in. Some good experiences, some not so good. In the latter camp, finding a palliative care nurse in with my wife before anyone had told me that was the only option, trying to see a doctor to ask about her care - no time to tell the family what is happening.... and my favourite, calling a nurse via the button, no one coming so going to the station to be told they were doing handover - I did feel obliged to ask when it was part of handover to talk about how pissed you were the night before. There are great people in the NHS, and there are some crap processes and far too much waste. Unlike Chris I dont believe public sector improves efficiency, I believe it kills it - so a private element might solve the latter...

But we dont have a state system for insuring your house, car, travel, why do we for health (as that is what the NHS effectively is)?

Enjoy retirement when it comes. I'm just under 7 years from my state pension but there is no way I'll be working till then, going to start the wind down next year at the start of the new tax year if work will approve it...

[Wooden Spoon]

 Search & Destroy, on 08 June 2024 - 08:37 AM, said:

Farage absolutely blew them away


As expected though


Raynor hopeless as expected



https://www.telegrap...lection-debate/

Not so sure he did to be honest- yesterdays man banging yesterdays drum was my impression

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

 isleaiw1, on 08 June 2024 - 10:30 AM, said:

But we dont have a state system for insuring your house, car, travel, why do we for health...

Because they aren't essential and health is.

And because the NHS was created to end people suffering and dying for want of the money to prevent it.

Farage has clearly stated he wants a return to those days. Or at least a tiered sector depending on the standard of cover folk can afford. So a simple question his supporters must ask: if there'll be some sort of 'safety net' ensuring everyone gets quality care, why pay extra?

Unless he really plans the most basic, bog standard, barely worth having service that'll see the very sixty something working class folk to whom he panders most vulnerable...

[isleaiw1]

 The Earl of Chesterfield, on 08 June 2024 - 02:06 PM, said:

Because they aren't essential and health is.

And because the NHS was created to end people suffering and dying for want of the money to prevent it.

Farage has clearly stated he wants a return to those days. Or at least a tiered sector depending on the standard of cover folk can afford. So a simple question his supporters must ask: if there'll be some sort of 'safety net' ensuring everyone gets quality care, why pay extra?

Unless he really plans the most basic, bog standard, barely worth having service that'll see the very sixty something working class folk to whom he panders most vulnerable...

There is a safety net that makes sure everyone gets something in life, called benefits or the state pension, but most of us want more than that. So yes, having a working, available, quality service for all, and a system where those who can pay for something different sounds fine to me. A bit like tickets at the footie, we could all go in the kop for the cheapest ticket, and it does the job. But some prefer to choose a different option...

But your first line is true. A quality health system is, and we dont have one at the moment. So how are you going to solve it if not do something different...? Just raise more taxes? Or nationalise it to make it more efficient..... ? Oh, wait....

Again after 14 years in opposition you are looking at it like a protest party, complaining about other people's suggestions but not offering a thought through solution. As the boomers get to the end of their working life, and give up the private health insurance they have had for years, there are going to be ever increasing numbers wanting to use the NHS. It cant cope now.... so what are Labour suggesting? More appointments? that needs more staff, where are they coming from, who is paying them (and their pensions, more staff will only exacerbate the ?2.6trn of unrecognised debt to public sector pensions, so that's another problem for another day). All paid for by solving tax dodging apparently...

Private service and private sector buildings means less capital building for the govt, less borrowing to fund it, and no more PFI deals such as Blair was keen on and it seems Reeves is, which have hamstrung the NHS ever since...

PS I know Wiki isnt the most reliable thing in the world but this is interesting for which countries already have a mix - including some of those that are thought of as being ahead of the UK...

https://en.wikipedia...tems_by_country including Australia and Germany.

This post has been edited by isleaiw1: 08 June 2024 - 02:51 PM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

 isleaiw1, on 08 June 2024 - 02:45 PM, said:

There is a safety net that makes sure everyone gets something in life, called benefits or the state pension, but most of us want more than that. So yes, having a working, available, quality service for all, and a system where those who can pay for something different sounds fine to me. A bit like tickets at the footie, we could all go in the kop for the cheapest ticket, and it does the job. But some prefer to choose a different option...

But your first line is true. A quality health system is, and we dont have one at the moment. So how are you going to solve it if not do something different...? Just raise more taxes? Or nationalise it to make it more efficient..... ? Oh, wait....

Again after 14 years in opposition you are looking at it like a protest party, complaining about other people's suggestions but not offering a thought through solution. As the boomers get to the end of their working life, and give up the private health insurance they have had for years, there are going to be ever increasing numbers wanting to use the NHS. It cant cope now.... so what are Labour suggesting? More appointments? that needs more staff, where are they coming from, who is paying them (and their pensions, more staff will only exacerbate the ?2.6trn of unrecognised debt to public sector pensions, so that's another problem for another day). All paid for by solving tax dodging apparently...

Private service and private sector buildings means less capital building for the govt, less borrowing to fund it, and no more PFI deals such as Blair was keen on and it seems Reeves is, which have hamstrung the NHS ever since...

PS I know Wiki isnt the most reliable thing in the world but this is interesting for which countries already have a mix - including some of those that are thought of as being ahead of the UK...

https://en.wikipedia...tems_by_country including Australia and Germany.

You asked why health insurance is different to any other, Ian.

I explained why before returning to Farage's policy which began this particular exchange.

But you ignored both points to yet again throw it back onto Labour.

Mate, I really do regret saying this, but you've joined the lamentable list of those with whom debate is so predictably pointless...

[calvin plummers socks]

 isleaiw1, on 08 June 2024 - 02:45 PM, said:

There is a safety net that makes sure everyone gets something in life, called benefits or the state pension, but most of us want more than that. So yes, having a working, available, quality service for all, and a system where those who can pay for something different sounds fine to me. A bit like tickets at the footie, we could all go in the kop for the cheapest ticket, and it does the job. But some prefer to choose a different option...

But your first line is true. A quality health system is, and we dont have one at the moment. So how are you going to solve it if not do something different...? Just raise more taxes? Or nationalise it to make it more efficient..... ? Oh, wait....

Again after 14 years in opposition you are looking at it like a protest party, complaining about other people's suggestions but not offering a thought through solution. As the boomers get to the end of their working life, and give up the private health insurance they have had for years, there are going to be ever increasing numbers wanting to use the NHS. It cant cope now.... so what are Labour suggesting? More appointments? that needs more staff, where are they coming from, who is paying them (and their pensions, more staff will only exacerbate the ?2.6trn of unrecognised debt to public sector pensions, so that's another problem for another day). All paid for by solving tax dodging apparently...

Private service and private sector buildings means less capital building for the govt, less borrowing to fund it, and no more PFI deals such as Blair was keen on and it seems Reeves is, which have hamstrung the NHS ever since...

PS I know Wiki isnt the most reliable thing in the world but this is interesting for which countries already have a mix - including some of those that are thought of as being ahead of the UK...

https://en.wikipedia...tems_by_country including Australia and Germany.

In the last few weeks I?ve been lucky enough to have stayed in The Londoner, Mandarin Oriental, Soho House White City and the Rosewood.

Londoner my fav of those - the rooms incredible

[Blue roan lily]

 Search & Destroy, on 08 June 2024 - 08:37 AM, said:

Farage absolutely blew them away


As expected though


Raynor hopeless as expected



https://www.telegrap...lection-debate/

He did
The others were like rabbits in the headlights
Farage says what the general public are thinking
His summing up of knife crime hit the nail on the head
Thought he was top draw

[isleaiw1]

 The Earl of Chesterfield, on 08 June 2024 - 04:56 PM, said:

You asked why health insurance is different to any other, Ian.

I explained why before returning to Farage's policy which began this particular exchange.

But you ignored both points to yet again throw it back onto Labour.

Mate, I really do regret saying this, but you've joined the lamentable list of those with whom debate is so predictably pointless...

I asked why we couldnt have private insurance just like we do for everything else, you said something about if there was a base level why would anyone want to pay for more... and I gave reasons...

And as its an election I will throw it back on anyone to come up with a solution not a complaint...

So far, I like what the Tories have said about making child benefit income based, I like what the Lib Dems have said about paternity leave, I like what Labour have said about building more houses, I like what Farage said (even though it pains me) about the NHS...

I'm looking forward to studying the Manifestos later in the week and deciding. Got to be a better option than finding how to fit what one party says about my beliefs...

By the way, there is no debate, you say Labour is good, everyone else is wrong but you never give reasons why that is the best solution or what you think the solution should be if your party are still keeping quiet about its solution. 40000 extra appaointments wont solve the NHS' issues.... even if they can get the staff - but will create more problems further down the line.

This post has been edited by isleaiw1: 08 June 2024 - 06:36 PM

[isleaiw1]

 calvin plummers socks, on 08 June 2024 - 05:41 PM, said:

In the last few weeks I?ve been lucky enough to have stayed in The Londoner, Mandarin Oriental, Soho House White City and the Rosewood.

Londoner my fav of those - the rooms incredible

I like the Londoner, Soho House doesnt do it for me but that might be their business model, the Rosewood is spectacular but not such a good location, never been in Mandarin Oriental but one of my team worked there and of course I say the TV prob.

Raffles at the OWO is my current itch.... but apparently work say I cant stay there on expenses to try out the comp!

[calvin plummers socks]

 isleaiw1, on 08 June 2024 - 06:39 PM, said:

I like the Londoner, Soho House doesnt do it for me but that might be their business model, the Rosewood is spectacular but not such a good location, never been in Mandarin Oriental but one of my team worked there and of course I say the TV prob.

Raffles at the OWO is my current itch.... but apparently work say I cant stay there on expenses to try out the comp!

I wasn?t keen on the Mandarin although everyone keeps saying it?s the best in town (it?s not).
My friend was at the Rosewood but is doing the US Embassy revamp which looks spectacular

[isleaiw1]

 calvin plummers socks, on 08 June 2024 - 06:42 PM, said:

I wasn?t keen on the Mandarin although everyone keeps saying it?s the best in town (it?s not).
My friend was at the Rosewood but is doing the US Embassy revamp which looks spectacular

with what its costing it should...

[oldgoat]

 isleaiw1, on 08 June 2024 - 10:30 AM, said:

And its been said thus since I can remember - but who runs the massive business that its become if we dont have pen pushers and bed managers? Getting people out when they are fit would help and that needs the care system sorting - and I havent seen that in any manifesto yet.

I am fortunate enough to have never spent a night in hospital for me since I was born in Ashgate but sadly I did get to spend many days there when my late wife was in. Some good experiences, some not so good. In the latter camp, finding a palliative care nurse in with my wife before anyone had told me that was the only option, trying to see a doctor to ask about her care - no time to tell the family what is happening.... and my favourite, calling a nurse via the button, no one coming so going to the station to be told they were doing handover - I did feel obliged to ask when it was part of handover to talk about how pissed you were the night before. There are great people in the NHS, and there are some crap processes and far too much waste. Unlike Chris I dont believe public sector improves efficiency, I believe it kills it - so a private element might solve the latter...

But we dont have a state system for insuring your house, car, travel, why do we for health (as that is what the NHS effectively is)?

Enjoy retirement when it comes. I'm just under 7 years from my state pension but there is no way I'll be working till then, going to start the wind down next year at the start of the new tax year if work will approve it...

You have a good works pension then , the vast amount of highly paid bed managers who appear to do f all are part of the wasted bit of the nhs , if it was slimmed down to do what it was supposed to do who knows .
I presume as you are part of a big organisation this will be familiar , when I was the manager of our team I was summonsed to a RCA and stood up for the team , the outcome was that I was a poor manager .
The second RCA was different , my immediate manager who was an OT by profession advised me to " not tell them the truth but the Bull *hit they want to hear " and I was suddenly the most improved manager in DCHS !
That's gong on my grave Ian

[isleaiw1]

 oldgoat, on 09 June 2024 - 07:12 PM, said:

You have a good works pension then , the vast amount of highly paid bed managers who appear to do f all are part of the wasted bit of the nhs , if it was slimmed down to do what it was supposed to do who knows .
I presume as you are part of a big organisation this will be familiar , when I was the manager of our team I was summonsed to a RCA and stood up for the team , the outcome was that I was a poor manager .
The second RCA was different , my immediate manager who was an OT by profession advised me to " not tell them the truth but the Bull *hit they want to hear " and I was suddenly the most improved manager in DCHS !
That's gong on my grave Ian

Lets be honest, if I had ever learned to say what my bosses wanted to hear, life would be a lot more straightforward.... I've learned as I got older to say what they dont want to hear more politely

I have a decent pension, but its costs me a lot of my pay, the company contribution is good for the private sector but not at public sector levels. Its the reason why I think the public sector should change - to give more cash when you are young and have kids etc, but more going into the pension if you want when older to boost the pension pot...

[dart in the crossbar]

 isleaiw1, on 08 June 2024 - 02:45 PM, said:

There is a safety net that makes sure everyone gets something in life, called benefits or the state pension, but most of us want more than that. So yes, having a working, available, quality service for all, and a system where those who can pay for something different sounds fine to me. A bit like tickets at the footie, we could all go in the kop for the cheapest ticket, and it does the job. But some prefer to choose a different option...

But your first line is true. A quality health system is, and we dont have one at the moment. So how are you going to solve it if not do something different...? Just raise more taxes? Or nationalise it to make it more efficient..... ? Oh, wait....

Again after 14 years in opposition you are looking at it like a protest party, complaining about other people's suggestions but not offering a thought through solution. As the boomers get to the end of their working life, and give up the private health insurance they have had for years, there are going to be ever increasing numbers wanting to use the NHS. It cant cope now.... so what are Labour suggesting? More appointments? that needs more staff, where are they coming from, who is paying them (and their pensions, more staff will only exacerbate the ?2.6trn of unrecognised debt to public sector pensions, so that's another problem for another day). All paid for by solving tax dodging apparently...

Private service and private sector buildings means less capital building for the govt, less borrowing to fund it, and no more PFI deals such as Blair was keen on and it seems Reeves is, which have hamstrung the NHS ever since...

PS I know Wiki isnt the most reliable thing in the world but this is interesting for which countries already have a mix - including some of those that are thought of as being ahead of the UK...

https://en.wikipedia...tems_by_country including Australia and Germany.

Or the Labour party could put an end to multi-millionaires allegedly taking 30% profits from public-funded NHS projects.

I refer again to the figures reported regarding one fast-lane PPE contract. If I recall correctly, it was reported in the press that the chap said that his company made 30% profit from the contract. I think that the press also idicated that he also said that such a % wasn't unusual. It was reported in the press that the profit was in the region of ?30M for that contract.

Ensuring that private profit is trimmed to the bone from public money combined with a grown up approach to NHS workforce planning would be a decent start by Labour.

[isleaiw1]

 dart in the crossbar, on 09 June 2024 - 08:00 PM, said:

Or the Labour party could put an end to multi-millionaires allegedly taking 30% profits from public-funded NHS projects.

I refer again to the figures reported regarding one fast-lane PPE contract. If I recall correctly, it was reported in the press that the chap said that his company made 30% profit from the contract. I think that the press also idicated that he also said that such a % wasn't unusual. It was reported in the press that the profit was in the region of ?30M for that contract.

Ensuring that private profit is trimmed to the bone from public money combined with a grown up approach to NHS workforce planning would be a decent start by Labour.

Well they cant change it for the PFI contracts put in place under Blair (which Reeves seems to be suggesting will be repeated) which are awful value....

If the management of the NHS are letting a supplier take a 30% margin given the size of their business, they should be fired. I'be going open book, agreed margin supplies (as happens with guaranteed supplies to the big supermarkets) and allowing them to make a fair margin given the size of the business they will be getting...

Of course what will happen is better pay deals for the workforce, even better terms and even less efficient operations...

[oldgoat]

1997 repeated without slimey Blair , Labour goes more tory than the tories to get elected

[isleaiw1]

 oldgoat, on 09 June 2024 - 08:41 PM, said:

1997 repeated without slimey Blair , Labour goes more tory than the tories to get elected

clearly that is what the public want...and better to be in power doing something, than in opposition achieving nothing... maybe!